How to Be a Better Procrastinator

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Mr. Biz Radio: How to Be a Better Procrastinator

Unedited transcription of the show is included below:

(00:03):

Welcome to Mr. Biz Radio! Biz Talk for Biz Owners. During the next half hour, Mr. Biz, Ken Wentworth, a leading business advisor, and two-time best-selling author will cover topics that'll help business owners run their companies more profitably and more efficiently. If you're ready to stop faking the funk and take your business onward and upward. This show is for you. And now here's Mr. Biz, Ken Wentworth.

(00:28):

Welcome to another episode of Mr. Biz Radio with me, Mr. Biz, Ken Wentworth. And this week we are going to talk about a topic. We have an expert as always on a topic that is something that is rears its ugly head at each and every one of our lives. At some point or another, I don't care how ambitious you are, how energetic, how lively the P word jumps in and bites you in the rear end sometimes. And in this case, the P word is procrastination <laugh>. So raise your hand. If you've dealt with procrastination in the past, right? It might be a specific task that you're trying to accomplish. And for whatever reason, you just can't get over the hump. You just can't get motivated and you keep putting it off, putting it off. And then all of a sudden you're left with a fire drill because maybe that deadline can't move right.

(01:20):

And it's something in your corporate career. Your boss is breathing down your neck. Maybe your it's something you need to get done around the house. Your spouse is saying, gosh, you know, the lights are still out or the garage door won't open or whatever it might be. We're gonna talk about procrastination. And this week we have a guest that is an expert in procrastination, not in being a procrastinator, but in helping us manage procrastination, be better at it. So this week's guest is Mr. Pat Sanaghan. He's an organ organizational consultant who works with many businesses, large and small, and has written a book, "Hw to be a Better Procrastinator". He considers himself a productive procrastinator. I'm I'm all about that. Who has learned how to manage his procrastination and accomplish many things. For example, he's written 12 books, not 1, 2, 3, I've written three books. I, I feel pretty good about that. 12, like pat blows me away. 60 plus published articles. He's a small business owner who leads a consulting firm of six people. So Pat, welcome to Mr. Biz Radio.

(02:21):

Thank you, Ken. Looking forward to the conversation.

(02:24):

Yeah. So let's dive in and gosh, I can't even imagine where this is gonna even go, but let's talk about your entrepreneurial journey. Like where, how did you become get involved in this space?

(02:36):

Yeah, well, years ago I was many years ago I was a school teacher. Okay. And then I became an administrator for about four years. I taught for about seven and although I was pretty good at administration I, it wasn't for me because a lot of times the behavior adults were more immature than the students I used to teach and it would drive me nuts. <Laugh> and I couldn't do this for another 20 odd years. So I finished my doctorate and one of my professors who had a boutique kind of consulting firm with university of Penn, people in temple and Drexel said, maybe you wanna try being a consultant? And I said, fine, cuz I know this is not my future here. And I did that for about five or six years with him and learned the game, you know, and, and, and we call that carrying the books, you know, you gotta be taping up the newsprint and doing the minutes, all the slug work that needs to be done to make sure a meeting goes really well or retreat goes really well.

(03:27):

And always in the room when they're talking about the, what they want to do and how they, they pleased the client. And, and so it was a great education. I mean it was a real good education. And then I went on my own about 1999 and created a small little firm. I didn't wanna manage a lot of people, the other boutique firm, it got bigger and bigger and that, and they wanted me to manage the whole thing. And I said, no, I wanna consult, not manage people. So I created my own business and I have six folks that are great and we have a nice nice arrangement with each other. And we do a lot of work in higher education. That's one of our big buckets. We've done a lot of work in the nonprofit sector. And also I've done a lot of work with some businesses like GE and IBM and Microsoft and things like that. So we try to play in lots of different arenas.

(04:10):

So when you say you work a lot in higher education, so do you work more with administration or are you also helping students to develop better habits to, to avoid procrastination?

(04:19):

Well, mostly with administrators and usually what I do is I, I help them do a couple things strategic planning, like where you wanna go in the future and you can imagine higher ed is going, they're having some pretty big challenges here. And also with executive teams, a lot of times a president brings his cabinet or her cabinet together. The assumption is everyone's smart and just kind of do what you gotta do. And that's not a team, right? I mean, you've gotta really build cohesion, relationships and things like that. So those are the two arenas that I play in the procrastination book got created because the COVID hit and I was on the road for about 150 or 60 days a year is a normal year. And then COVID and boom I'm home. And I looked around my office and you know, I do a lot of reading and writing and I had three books on procrastination, cuz I've been trying to manage my own procrastination for many years.

(05:06):

And so I said to myself, geez, maybe I should just kinda look at these articles and notes and things like that and put something together that might help people manage their procrastination. So that's how the book got created. And we've got a couple workshops on procrastination. It's not a big bucket of work for me, but I deal with a lot of entrepreneurs and senior leaders around their own procrastination. And which is a little surprising. A lot of people say, oh, you got a senior executive. They they're probably doers and get things done, but they can procrastinate also. And entrepreneurs can procrastinate. The biggest reason is because they try to do everything and you just can't do everything. You just, you, you gotta figure some things out. So I work with them kind of one on one kind of executive coaching to kind of manage their procrastination. That make sense.

(05:49):

Oh, it makes perfect sense. Yeah. And I'll tell you, and we can get into this a little bit more later, but I, you know, I consider myself, I mean I work my butt off and I'm very ambitious and, and, and really, I, I I get stuff done. Yes. But I'll tell you where, but where procrastination bites me in the butt. And again, I, I we'll talk about this a little bit more, but I wanna mention this just to allude to it right now is, is what I found is when I went back and looked at, you know, the different things, cause it frustrates the heck outta me. Like, why am I procrastinating? Cause I don't procrastinate everything. And I went back and looked and what are the things that I procrastinate on and what I found for myself personally, at least it's the thing that I don't wanna do.

(06:28):

Right. Are the things that I don't wanna do. And then it just creates this whole tidal wave of stress and anxiety because I put it off and it has a set deadline and I put it off and I put it off and I put it off and now the timeline's getting crunched. So now the, the stress and anxiety's becoming bigger. And then I dislike this, the, the task even more and I don't wanna do it even more. Right. And so it just kind of, sort of compounds on me. So I try to manage that a little bit better and, and tackle some of those things earlier in the process. But so we've only got a couple minutes left to your back, but I wanna, I did wanna touch on when you moved from education into consulting, how did you determine what part of consulting you wanted to be in?

(07:09):

I think it was more of a leap of faith than anything else. I knew that I knew a lot about planning and even as an administrator, you know, I had 65 people in my unit. So I knew how to get people moving and, you know, paying attention to people and having scorecards. So I knew I had that skillset of I could you, you, if you plan, well, you can almost plan anywhere. And then the second skill I had is, you know, I was a, an athlete at one time. So I played football and all that kind of stuff. And you learn to be on a team. So those two kind of knowledges and I read a lot of stuff. It made me feel confident that I could add value to this consulting group. And you know, they were senior players. I was nervous the first couple years, but I ended up doing very, very, very well. But having that competence, you know, having some deep competence in a couple things, gave me the confidence to make that, that leap forward. And also I realized I wasn't very happy. I wasn't unhappy, but I wasn't. I saw my God 20 or 25 more years of this and I would've moved up the ladder cuz like you I'm an ambitious and I'd get things done. But I said, I just want to get out of this, this, this runaround in this circus. And so I did, so it was a risk, there was a risk.

(08:09):

Oh for sure. Yeah. And I, I, you know, it's, I'm, I'm, I'm guessing as well, moving out of what you had been doing and you were doing well at you, you almost start to probably experience a little bit of imposter syndrome. Like you said, you you're in a room with some senior people and you're like, man, do I really belong here? Can I, can I swing it here? Can I do this?

(08:28):

Absolutely. What up I do it here? Or I remember one boy said, don't say anything to first meeting Santa hand, cuz they'll think you're stupid. I said, okay, I won't say anything <laugh> but he said, he said, listen and listen and listen. And then when he debrief with me, we take some notes. So it was a nice learning journey, but that's right. Sometimes you're with, I mean, I'm very comfortable with presidents of universities now 25 years ago. I wasn't, I was little intimidated, you know, so sure exactly right. Yeah. Why I'm in the room here? Yeah, we hope they don't answer

(08:53):

Question. Yeah. Good stuff. We'll we're gonna hit a break here. We'll come back and continue. Continue talking with Pat Sanaghan.

(08:59):

Thanks. Ken

(09:01):

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(09:31):

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(10:02):

Check out both of Mr. Biz national bestselling books, "Pathway to Profits" and “How to be a Cashflow Pro" on Amazon. Now, once again, here's Mr. Biz.

(10:13):

All right. Welcome back to the show. And as we always do with the outset of the second segment, it's time for Mr. Biz tip of the week, and this is one of those those, one of those what was that thing they used to do on silent live guys? Just gonna date me, but silent live used to have I think it was deep thoughts by Jack Handy, deep thoughts by Jack Handy. So this one is, is similar to that. So consider this one. If you do nothing, everything will be the same. If you do something, nothing will be the same. That's big. So this lends itself to, we've talked about this before of taking action and there's never gonna be a perfect time. You can't wait for the perfect time. You gotta take action. You're probably gonna make some mistakes. That's okay.

(10:59):

You're gonna learn from them. You're gonna learn what didn't work and how to optimize that situation, et cetera. But you gotta take action. So sitting around and doing nothing is going to change exactly that. Nothing you gotta take action. So that's the Mr. Biz tip of the week this week. So let's get back into talking to this week's guest, Pat Sanaghan of the Sanaghan Group. So Pat you know, you transition into consulting you've been doing it for quite some time. Now tell us a little bit more about what you do at the Sagnahan group.

(11:31):

Well, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, the do a help universities think about the future in organizations, think about the future and then come up with a plan. And then like you said, the action piece, the implementation coming up with big ideas is not a hard challenge for a lot of people getting things done and lifting them off is really the hard work. And I think you just opened up this segment in a very powerful notion action matters. And with procrastinators starting is the hardest part. So find some way to get started. And one of the myths that a lot of procrastinators have, and there's about 20 to 25% of the adult population in this country are procrastinators. I mean, they're chronic procrastinators is the lifestyle. You talked about a certain thing that you gotve got. I've got something around income taxes it takes me forever to do my income taxes. And when I do some stress and worry and aggravation and things like that, but I, I, I get done on time now, 25 years ago, I didn't and had to pay some penalties. So it's it's, it's learning to manage it and moving something forward. And I think the notion amount, if you fail, that's okay. If you learn from it, you'll get smarter and smarter as you go. Absolutely.

(12:34):

Yeah. Well, and I, I can imagine over the years, especially working on the higher education side of things, how much how much I hate to pigeonhole and stereotype or anything, but how much on the higher education side of things does bureaucracy play into procrastination?

(12:53):

Well, I think that a lot of bureaucratic systems slow everything down and there's not, I think there's a lot of entrepreneurs in certain parts of a campus or an institution like this school of business, probably the philosophy department or the music department or the French deposit a lot less so. And a lot of times you'll find that faculty don't like change. A lot of people don't like change, but higher ed is not built for change. And now because of COVID, they're gonna have be a lot more flexible and responsive going forward, but it's gonna be very, very difficult,ufor a lot of people in higher education, cuz you kind of sign on for life, right? If you're a young PhD of 30 years, you're gonna stay at XYZ, you know, campus or institution for 30 years, they tend not to move around a lot. I mean, some people do, but 80% of the faculty stay where they, they start and uyou can get little complacent and maybe a little conservative and little bit stayed. So the, the change process is gonna, the COVID thing is gonna change a lot of things in higher education. So they're gonna have to be much more agile and responsive.

(13:51):

Yeah. And I think to stay competitive, right, as they're, as, as other universities have pivoted Bob and weed, so to speak with the pandemic and some of the challenges that has presented to education, the fact that they may have done that as Stu, as incoming students are considering maybe that university for, for example, and that university still maybe, you know, stuck pre COVID in the way they look at things that couldn't, you know, heard enrollment as they go forward.

(14:18):

Absolutely. It's a great example. I mean, there's some research that shows that when students go on the webpage to look at a school you've got about five seconds and if you get a clunky webpage, ding, they go someplace else. Right? I mean, think about that. They're not gonna sit there for an hour and kind of figure things out in five seconds, they'll make a decision, not that a decision to stay with the webpage or to move someplace else. So just with the technology, you've gotta be much more agile, much. It's gotta be sexy and big and get 'em involved right away and keep them, keep them their attention connected to your school. And if you can't compete against that, you're gonna be in big trouble. And usually, unfortunately the folks with a lot of money, you know, you've got the Stanfords and Cornells, I did some work at Cornell many years ago. They've got billions in the bank, you know, university of Penn, a lot of colleges don't have billions. They don't have millions, they got a few thousand bucks. So you really can't invest. They really can't invest in, you know, a $10 million, you know, like online program. They have to think very entrepreneurial and very Credly to be able to compete against the big boys and girls.

(15:19):

Yeah. And I can tell you with certainty pat. So our middle daughter is grad. She graduates high school here in less than a month. And when we are going through the process with her in the midst of COVID of, of visiting campuses, et cetera, and where she was gonna go to continue her education, that was a big thing. And I distinctly remember, and I promise pat and I did not discuss this before the show, but she, there was one particular, she, she went and researched she's going into education. So she went and researched schools that were within a certain distance proximity to where we live. She wanted, she didn't wanna be too close, but she didn't wanna be too far away. She don't wanna be a plane right away. And she was going out and looking at websites and she was sitting on the couch next to me.

(16:05):

So I don't even know what she's looking at. Right. Pat and I distinctly remember her saying, she clicked on a and I hear the click. Right. I hear the click and I hear, Ugh, it's taking too long click and she's right. She's gone. And it, I know it was less, it was definitely less than 10 seconds. Absolutely. And I'm like, geez, Louise, like, did it take a little bit long? She's like if a website did this in today's day and age, if it takes that long, they don't really care about the website. If they don't care about the website, that's the first impression, you know,

(16:31):

Exactly. That's a powerful notion. I was in on a plane about three months ago with a young guy next to the NBA from from Harvard, Neil Sharp kid, 24 years old. And we started 10 a little bit and we got around to, you know, the banking because he's in the banking. I said to make a long story short, he looked at his wristwatches. I haven't been in the bank in four years, sir. And I said, excuse me, you're in the banking business. You haven't been in the bank. He said, oh, I do everything here. You know, he had an apple watch. I have an old Rolex. I mean, so I'm not doing that. And I said, I like going to the bank and signing the checks and that kinda stuff. He says, there's no reason for it. And you know, he's, you know, up and coming kinda young, man, who's in the banking business who doesn't want to go to a bank. I mean, things have changed. And your daughter's examples, a powerful one, 10 seconds, Bing she's out of there.

(17:18):

Yeah. And so she never went back. No, but that was the first impression. So she was like, they, in her mind, the fact that the website was slow and wouldn't load meant that they don't care about the first impression. Cuz that's the first impression for again, this was in the midst of COVID. So that was super important at that time, especially let alone, you know, as we go forward. And so she never went back. Cause I, I asked her when we, you know, she did her research and everything and you know, this was probably a week, two weeks later we went down, she was pairing down the list of where we were actually gonna physically go visit. And I said, what was the, what was the school you were looking? And you, you clicked right off. Cause their website was too long. She goes, I don't even remember now. I said, you never went back. She's like, no, like she just completely turned her off. It was crazy. <Laugh>

(18:04):

Interesting. Let me just build on your idea just for a second. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> procrastinators. Think that more is better and that they have lots of challenges. Lots of opportunities. Just wonderful. And it's the research says it's not a good idea for people who procrastinate and is less is better. And that there's a guy named the paradox of choice, a guy named I think Swar is his last name. He's a professor outta Swarthmore, which is here in Pennsylvania. And he said it's between three and five choices is all you need. And then he paired down his research. He said, basically it's three. So when you start with a list of 15 things you want do quote unquote or colleges you want to go to. I, I mean, I get that. It's, it's a traditional thing. It's a very important thing. But sounds like she's whittled it down to a handful and a handful she'll choose, but procrastinators keep on creating more options and choices and they give frozen. Does that make sense?

(18:51):

Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Makes perfect sense guys. We're gonna hit a break

(18:55):

Here on Mr. Biz radio.

(18:56):

We'll come back. We'll talk with pat and we're gonna learn how to manage our procrastination.

(19:00):

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(19:29):

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(20:00):

To submit questions to the show, email them to This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. Now once again, here's Mr. Biz.

(20:10):

All right. Welcome back

(20:11):

To the show. And as I mentioned earlier actually when I think when I was introducing pat he has written a book amongst the 12 that he's written, but how to be a better procrastinator. And so pat, I was hoping during this segment that we could dive into that a little bit, because again, as we've discussed already, it's something that just rears us ugly head with everyone at some point or another. I don't want give away all the secret sauce. Right. But if you could talk about some ways that we could help manage that, is there, are there ways that we can identify it's coming on? Are there ways that we can manage around that?

(20:46):

Well, absolutely. What happened with the procrastination? I call it the cycle and a lot of research behind this is it's, there's a tough task to do a noxious task to do it could be overwhelming or detailed or boring, but you don't like it. And big, strong feelings come up of anxiety. Stress. You talked about that a little bit earlier in the other segment, worry overwhelm. And if you step away from the task and this is key, when you step away from the task, the emotions disappear, all that anger and frustration and stress goes away. Now, intellectually, you know, you still have to kind of do the task, but emotionally you feel better. And that's the hook does that. It just hooks you and hooks you and hooks you a couple strategy you can use for, for procrastination is it's really important to think about rewards.

(21:30):

If you have accomplished a task, make sure you have a reward that you enjoy. That could be a walk in the woods that could be reading a chapter of a book that could watch a movie could be a glass of wine, whatever that is. And the problem with adults sometimes is we think of rewards. We shouldn't need rewards. We should be more mature and more disciplined. And it's silly thinking. It just keeps the procrastination cycle going. If you know, you've got a reward after a tough task, the anticipation of the reward is almost as strong as a reward itself. Like think about vacations and birthday parties and planning for those kinds of things. So rewards really work. So set yourself up with a reward map to give yourself something nice after you've finished the task. The second thing that you need to be thinking about is it's really helpful to make your progress visible.

(22:12):

And I have a checklist I have every day and I don't, I used to be 10 things on a, on the checklist and someone ask me and I always get to seven or eight and never get the nine or 10. And I'd feel like, geez, I'm exhausted. And I don't feel very successful cause he only got eight done instead of the 10 done. And then a buddy of mine said, well, why do you have 10 things you gotta do? I said, I don't know. I heard that someplace. I read that. He says, why'd you cut that in half and see what happens. And it was a game changer when I have now I have five or six max things I gotta do every day. They're pretty important. Not just making email things. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and I, I check it off with a black marker, real big, but black marker.

(22:50):

Anytime I've accomplished something. And it is, it feels very, very, very good. So rewards work and making your progress visible. And then the third thing is something called temptation bundling. And that's when you marry something pretty noxious with something pleasant. So if I had to clean out the garage, I might listen to the sports station. If I don't want to exercise, I might walk with a friend. If I gotta, you know, do a lot of ironing, I might watch TV while I'm doing it. So if you can marry something positive with something negative, we call that temptation bundling that can, that can move things forward. And then the last thing that you kind of alluded to already, Ken, is that one of the challenges with the procrastinators is they have to feel like they have to do the task. And if they feel motivated, then they'll do it.

(23:34):

And the motivation that never comes, I don't wanna do my income taxes. I have to do my income taxes. So the notion of you said, this say action. If you act, you create momentum. And that creates motivation. It's not the other way around. And that's a very important thing for people who procrastinate, just do something even it's for 10 minute, we call 'em chewable chunks, 10 or 15 minutes, take a break, 10 or 15 unit to sit there for seven hours and try to plow through something procrastinate. Won't do that. But 15 minutes you can make a little progress. You get a little momentum, you get a little bit of success and you can move things forward. But those are some strategies you can use.

(24:10):

Yeah. And, and Pat, I love that. You mentioned that. Well all of them, but really the, the, the last one really resonated with me a lot because that's thought I was gonna ask you about next was it's like you, you picked my brain here, but because that's what, what I've found works for me is I think a lot of times when I procrastinate, it's something I don't want to do. Right. For income taxes, for example, that's another one of mine. I'm not a big fan of it either. But what I've found for me to be able to manage that better is I break it down into different, you know, much smaller chunks, just like you mentioned. And then it's not, I don't have to do my income taxes. I don't have to do this. I just have to do this first. Yes. And then I get that done. And I'm like, you know, like you said, it creates that momentum. Like, holy crap, I got, I have 12 steps to get to the end here, right. To, to have my income taxes filed. And I've got three of them done. I'm I'm, I'm a quarter of the way there.

(24:59):

Absolutely. That's great thinking. That's absolutely great thinking. So the problem with the provider say, oh, got 12 things to do. Boom, whoa, just focus on one, focus on one and get a little movement forward and you'll feel successful. It's exactly the way to do we call chewable chunks. So when I do my income taxes, I do two things. I do temptation bundling. I watch sports while I'm doing it. It takes me a lot longer, but I get done. I get finished. Right. And, and I, I spend it in 15 or 20 minutes. Then I take a break, come back to it, watch the sports 15 or 20 minutes. And I might do that over a couple days and I eventually get it done. So the temptation bundling with the sports, something fun while I'm doing this noxious task and doing it in 15 and 20 minute chunks, not plow, I will never plow through my income taxes. I just won't won't do that. So I mean, your, your, your point is very well made action really is the key. And it's 10, 15 minutes is all you need. And once in a while, you'll find yourself almost always of feeling that, oh, I've got some motivation going here. I've had some success, let me continue some as bad as we think it is sometimes.

(25:58):

Yeah. I think you're a hundred percent. Right. And it, as you were saying that, it just made me think of another thing, another instance where I U I, I, I didn't know at the time I, I used temptation bundling and, and that's folding laundry.

(26:10):

Yes. I,

(26:11):

I hate folding laundry. Right. So what I do now is I'll bring a basket to clothes in to our bedroom, set the basket of clothes on the bed. That's great. And I put sports center on. Yep. And I watch sports center while I'm full. And so I don't even realize that I'm doing this task that I don't like doing at all, because I'm focused on sports center. As you mentioned, it might take me a little bit longer, but it doesn't matter.

(26:32):

It doesn't matter. It's not painful. Right. But if you were just in the garage doing it or the, the, you know, the, the, the room. Yeah. Oh God, this is boring, but you watching sports or you're doing something kind of mindless. That's a great example of temptation, but absolutely.

(26:45):

<Laugh>. I love it. I love it. Well, it, it's interesting for me personally, at least to, to see that I've kind of come up with some of these inadvertently, you know, to try to manage it a little bit better with some of these tasks that I just you know, don't like to do. Yeah. Is that, is that one of the things too, I should ask you is, is it because are the things that procrastinate? Is it oftentimes things that we're just not good at?

(27:10):

Yes. A lot of times you don't know how to do it. And a lot of times procrastinate is a very bad at asking for help. Mm that's a smart thing to do. I learned that when I started my consulting business or started consulting, my boss said, ask questions. And I, you know, if I'm being honest, I'd say, well, if I'm asking questions, I might look stupid. He said, no, no, no. If you're asking questions, you're curious and you're a learner and you'll learn a lot. So I think that that's something that's really, to help pay attention to.

(27:37):

Yeah. Cuz I think sometimes, you know, some challenges, you know, that I've got, you know, that I business related things. It's just, I know I'm not very good at 'em. And so I don't, I don't wanna mess with it. So I procrastinate. Oh, I'll do it later. I'll do it later. And then the anxiety builds because I'm like, oh my gosh, I still have to do this. Like you alluded to earlier.

(27:56):

Yeah. Look, can I tell you a quick story? Sure. So a colleague mine gives me a call and he has a three car garage, basically. He's full of crap. I mean just, and he is not a hoarder. He just saves everything. Right? Yeah. And his wife is getting upset because she wanted to park the car and she couldn't. And he would try every Saturday he'd lift up the, the doors and look at this mess and say, oh my God. And just shut the doors again. He did that for about three or four months. He gave me a call and said, you know, you, can you help me? And I said, well, let me suggest something. Is there somebody else in your neighborhood with a garage like yours? He said, the guy across the Street's even worse than me bill. I said, well, listen, here's the suggestion.

(28:29):

And this is what asking for help is so important for procrastinators. You get a six pack of beer. You're knock on his door on next Saturday. And he said, bill, I'd like to buy you a beer. And by the way, I'll give you an hour of my time to help you clean up your garage. Are you interested? Well know, who's gonna say no to that offer. Right? What they did is they rotated the Saturdays. They had a few beers together and they got a little bit of a friendship kind of going and in three months, both the garages, they weren't perfect, but you could see what you had. And the wife was able to park her car. So asking for help and asking for support is a smart thing. Just to kind of get things going for procrastinators love

(29:02):

Ask. So I love it

(29:03):

Had before. Yeah.

(29:04):

I love it pat. I love it, pat so much good stuff. So much good stuff. I hate to say we're out of time here, but Pat Sanaghan thanks so much for coming on the show. Just golden nuggets, man. Really appreciate it.

(29:16):

Thank you very much, Ken. I appreciate that very much. Take care.

(29:19):

Yeah, absolutely. Guys. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. I'm sure you got a lot out of this show. Have a great week and don't forget as always cash flow is king.

(29:33):

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